Wednesday, March 7, 2012

Possible alternative loading device to induce adult height growth?

The key to adult height growth is to induce in vivo chondrogenesis in the bone marrow to get height growth from new endochondral ossification.  LSJL is one method to do such that.  However, there may be another device capable of inducing in vivo chondrogenesis in the bone marrow and therefore other devices capable of adult height growth.

A combination of shear and dynamic compression leads to mechanically induced chondrogenesis of human mesenchymal stem cells.

"Articular motion is a combination of compressive, tensile and shear deformations; therefore, one can presume that compression alone is unlikely to be a sufficient mechanical signal to generate a cartilage-like tissue in vitro[so compressive, tensile, and shear deformations are likely needed to induce chondrogenesis in bone marrow]. we aimed to determine the role of shear on the fate of stem cell differentiation[LSJL induces fluid based shear strain]. Specifically, we investigated the potential enhancing effect of surface shear, superimposed on cyclic axial compression, on chondrogenic differentiation of human bone marrow-derived stem cells. Using a custom built loading device[could this device be an alternative to LSJL?] we applied compression, shear or a combination of both stimuli onto fibrin/polyurethane composites in which human mesenchymal stem cells were embedded, while no exogenous growth-factors were added to the culture medium. Both compression or shear alone was insufficient for the chondrogenic induction of human mesenchymal stem cells. However, the application of shear superimposed upon dynamic compression led to significant increases in chondrogenic gene expression[LSJL should imply both shear and compressive forces.  Axial loading should only apply compressive forces as there is no pressure gradient hence why axial loading does not induce height growth]. Histological analysis detected sulphated glycosaminoglycan and collagen II only in the compression and shear group."

The device is basically a ball placed directly on the mesenchymal stem cells.  I assume to be like the ball of the knee joint.  So the purpose of the ball was for it to oscillate to generate fluid shear strain.

"Group A was the free-swelling (unloaded) control. Group B was exposed to unconfined dynamic compression at 1 Hz with 0.4 mm sinusoidal strain, superimposed on a 0.4 mm static offset strain, resulting in a strain amplitude of 10-20 % of the scaffold height at the centre of the construct. Group C was exposed to ball oscillation of ±25° at 1 Hz, superimposed on a 0.4 mm static compression offset strain. Group D was a combination of both loading regimes. Mechanical load was applied during 1 h a day for 5 consecutive days per week over 3 weeks"<-LSJL loading applies load for slightly over 1 minute which is much less than 1 hour.

"There was a trend towards higher total GAG/DNA values in the loaded groups which included shear[so shear strain is very important for inducing chondrogenesis, axial loading induces no shear strain thus no chondrogenesis], but no significant difference over the compression only group was detected. All individual donors demonstrated the same trend[so all individual bone marrow sources were capable of chondrogenesis]"

Compression and Sox9 groups expressed much more Sox9 than just shear groups alone.  So compressive forces are still important to chondrogenesis.  If you look at Figure 6D in the study you can almost see a growth plate.

What we can take from this study is that maybe the LSJL clamping routine is not dynamic enough at inducing fluid based shear strain.  Perhaps rapid clamping and unclamping would be a way to make LSJL induce more shear forces.

The ball device is not something that could be used as you'd need to put the ball directly against the bone marrow.  Maybe surgically implanting a ball in the bone marrow may be a possibility for the future.

70 comments:

  1. So LSJL sends new stem cells to the growth plate? Then the stem cells cause the growth plate to form once again. But, the growth plate fuses once again right? Are you really that thick in the head tyler? Why don't you stop the plates from fusing then?

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  2. can you explain exactly what you mean by
    "Perhaps rapid clamping and unclamping would be a way to make LSJL induce more shear forces."

    what exactly do we do, to do that?

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  3. there is no need to use other mechanisms to induce chondrogenesis. lsjl is more than enough. its just that some people forget to keep the growth plates, just like they did in puberty, surely you would learn from your mistakes.

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  4. anom 1 thats clever but what about the vast majority of people including myself who are looking for ADULT height gain what goods that to us and is it even possible to keep growth plates open after teenage years how if the body is genetically programmed upon reaching adulthood to close them

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  5. by what ways can the growth plates prevented from fusing or re fusing my point is there a practical way to do this?and how do we know if they do re fuse or are we just presuming if we done regular intermittent lsjl would this be the only practical way to induce regular growth plate activity.

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  6. so much talk not enough walk.period.

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  7. Annonymous #3: You can't keep the growth plates open forever because chondrocytes have finite proliferative capacity. You need new stem cells to differentiate into chondrocytes.

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  8. Wow a lot of bitterness in here. These are ways to test growth, I don't think anyone guaranteed anything. You have to try and fail, maybe 1000 times before you find out, but it takes ruling things out to come to a conclusion. Maybe nothing works, but there is no point being bitter to Tyler who is TRYING and trying hard to find a way, sharing it and looking for input. Go be pissed in your pissy pants somewhere else.

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    1. JW4 i agree tyler HAS given us lots of info, i wonder how the hell did he grasp/learn all this stuff, it must of taken a couple years of study,
      and there will always be a need to continue posting information because biology isn't so simple, biology is complex.

      i guess the majority of people wont grow, it will take a lot of modification of the body, which you would need to be a expert on. but still, its pointless to, if nothing happens. thank you tyler for your research finding and posting

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    2. the majority of people wont grow muscle but those that do the are the ones that pound the iron in the gym ( favourable genes goes a long way)

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  9. tyler no disrespect but what timeframe from now do you expect to put all your informarion to use? seems like everyone reading this blog is getting nowhere, nothings is really maniifesting. what are your plans what do u intend to do with all these blog posts and more importantly when? and can you tell us in a post what you think for all the younger generation who see this blog but are not expert like you

    at least tell us what you plan on researching and give us some clear info here

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  10. i mean tyler is...it just seems like your compiling information but not really doing anything besides lsjl?

    most people here want to grow now, but i also understand this is a fairly complex interdisciplinary field, and has taken you and others i would guess years of study.

    maybe its just that people are growing anxious, i must saying it blows my mind how much you post, this is quite a blog, but it seems that there is a big lacking in real world results. probably because people couldn't financially do everything this blog suggested but i would say its rather that there is a big disconnect between communication, this information isn't getting out there and explained i would have to say, i mean what would you say to some young teen who wants to grow now?

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    1. To a teen who wants to grow now: it's hard to recommend supplements because they haven't been tested really. I can just provide promising supplements that could increase height. It's at the users discretion to determine whether the supplement is worthwhile to increase height.

      All I can recommend is look over the supplements mentioned here and do LSJL.

      It's frustrating that the people who have the resources to investigate height growth won't do anything but we just have to keep chugging and looking for any related information.

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  11. So you're saying instead of leaving the epiphysis clamped for one minute while increasing the load every 2 sec. Now clamp for 2 sec. Then unclamp, then clamp again? How long do you do this for?

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    1. I'm not sure. One alternative is to use LIPUS which increases fluid flow. LSJL provides the compression and LIPUS provides the fluid flow. LSJL should be able to do both but the lack of definitive gains could indicate that the current way of applying LSJL is not generating enough fluid flow.

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  12. discussion on safety comes first, but we just need to begin the process for starting action somewhere.

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  13. sorry tyler i apoligize
    no pressure, you've done more for us by blogging and sharing your thoughts then most have.

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  14. Tyler... Epic fail my friend. You just contradicted yourself there. LSJL sends new stem cells to the growth plate! What part of that don't you understand? So, you use "X" substance to inhibit the growth plate fusion, and you keep doing LSJL to supply the growth plate with new stem cells to keep the growth plate alive. This way, your LSJL gains stack up, so if the LSJL causes a small growth plate to form, X substance will allow the gains from LSJL to stack up over time, allowing each chondrocyte to proliferate much more before finally going hypertrophic. At the rate you are ging, the chondrocytes dont even get to proliferate more than one before being replaced by bone. Simple, and yet you don't do anything about it.

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    1. It would be nice to study how much chondrogenesis LSJL induces. There needs to be a certain degree of cellular condensation to induce chondrogenesis.

      Cartilage doesn't get replaced by bone until chondrocytes finish hypertrophying. There's no race between bones and chondrocytes.

      But we won't know if LSJL induces enough chondrogenesis until their are studies done.

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    2. Would LIPUS + LSJL induce enough?

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    3. So you're saying that lsjl is the only thing available at your disposal to induce chondrogenesis? Anything else that promotes chondrogenesis that we know of guys? Hmmm, I think GH is one, and perhaps cnp with it's NAG enhancing properties, and thats about it. Think about it.

      Well, I think there is something in your body thats speeding up the rate at which the chondrocytes mature and differentiate into bone. And, by now, you aren't really responding to LSJL because of the the osteoblast pathway. Think about why your growth plates fused in the first place. Just think.

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    4. LIPUS+LSJL might induce enough as LIPUS is good at inducing fluid flow and LSJL is good at inducing lateral compression. LSJL may do both sufficiently.

      LSJL is the current mechanical way of inducing chondrogenesis. There are supplements that might help induce chondrogenesis but there haven't been any in vitro studies on them.

      LSJL does stimulate the osteoblast pathway. But, the reason that growth plates fused is that chondrocytes reached their proliferative capacity. Regardless of how much osteogenic activity was stimulated.

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    5. Who cares about studies. GH is a known chondrogenesis promoter. Just use GH or something. Well, if LSJL stimulates the osteoblast pathway, then it means the wnt pathway is used right? If so, then mesenchymal differentiation to chondrocytes is suppressed.

      What do you mean the chondrocytes the proliferative and the growth plates fused due to the proliferative limit? It's got nothing to do with anything. Yeah sure chondrocytes have a proliferative, I mean it's obvious since all cells have a proliferative limit. So, how many times do you think a chondrocyte can divide before finally stopping? 60 maybe. If so, then you wouldn't be able to reach 5ft without your growth plates fusing. Therefore, we can deduce that the chondrocytes are not being replenished by msc at the same as they are dying, leading to epiphyseal plate maturation (thinning of the growth plate) and/or fusion. Taking into consideration, stem cells create the growth plate and keep it functioninjg, we need to find out why the stem cells stop differentiating into chondrocytes nearing the end of puberty. And research has it that it's due to the osteoblastic activity which is potently stimulated by the various growth factors and hormones that prevent chondrogenesis of mscs. What you are doing is working against the osteoblastic gradient with all these chondrogenesis boosters. The best way would be to get rid of the factors preventing chondrogenesis. Food for thought. Keep up mate.

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  15. Dav82 i am fully confident it is practically possible i have gained over 1/2 an inch recently after years of work i was shade under 5ft 9 flat and this stayed the same for as long as i can remeber now i am 5ft 9.5 this is hard evidence for me and i definitely noticed changes i feel taller there is a significant increase on my wadbrode marking my large nike pants have next to no drag anymore at the bottom so here thats my vote of confidence keep up the hard work because i believe you got to be dedicated and consitent 95% people are not progress is being made and this site is brilliant and unique how much height you gained in total with lsjl tyler?

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    1. what was your routine to gain half an inch? I gained 1 1/2 inches from LSJL.

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    2. Dav82 i have being perfoming LSJL consistently in the late evenings recently before i go to bed i have study this subject in depth from every angle i use the parrells from my bodybuilding interests and attempt to make the bone grow with stress the same way muscles do i vary my dynamic loading frequently to keep the body guessing i use lsjl 8-12 rep range not time and squeeze each rep dynamically (longitudally) add a stretch i stress the entire body i then take a very hot bath

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    3. i perform most nights or sometimes through the day 4/5 times per week on 2/3 off i like to allow time for recovery

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  16. x substance being an aromatase inhibitor or possibly a wnt inhibitor that can be taken orally.

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  17. so many comments on here this is turning into a forum are you cool with this tyler anyway what about inhibting aromatase for males what benefits could this do for inhibting growth plate fusion or possible regeneration?

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    1. Melatonin, mushrooms, fat loss, and vitamin D

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  18. I agree with the Anons above.. Where exactly are you heading with all this information? You sure know a lot, but why not incorporate all this information into a routine? I'd also like to know your progress with LSJL.

    I'd like to share my success with LSJL, growing about 1 cm in the almost 4 months for my right leg only.

    Thanks,
    needagrowtaller

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    1. if you have grown 1 cm in the right leg what evidence do you have for this are your height measurements any taller

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    2. Honestly, I do have proof. The only proof I can provide is an image of the difference between my left and right leg. I do not have an images of it before I started LSJL nor do I have any height measurements, etc.

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    3. Clarification: "do not" have proof.

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  19. I'm interested in how you're getting along with LSJL too, Tyler. Thanks for all your work.

    I have been performing LSJL on each accessible epiphysis of my hands for one minute each per day for the last month or so. I simply pinch and squeeze as hard as I can. Both hands have grown approximately one mm. My left hand was around 7.275 inches; my right around 7.175. They now measure slightly over 7.3 and slightly over 7.2 respectively. An increase in prominence of the knuckles is clear.

    I performed LSJL on each accessible epiphysis of each of my legs for one minute each every day for a month by loading with a 30 lb dumbbell. I pressed down a lot and made sure to contract the surrounding muscles. I documented growth of around .15 of an inch.

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    1. Just for clarification, I meant that I *had* been performing LSJL on my hands for a month as of those measurements. I was planning on holding off the measurements so I could sort of surprise myself, but I thought, screw it. The thickness increase is inarguable to me. Wolff's law is well established, so there's no reason LSJL shouldn't increase thickness. The length: well, I made sure to measure a few times on both occasions, and it has come out higher; but of course a few mm, as the Anonymous below me stated, could be measurement error. I planned on getting up to 7.5 inches on my left hand and 7.4 on my right (I have my reasons for those specifics). If I'm able to measure that high then there'll be no suspicion in my mind that it's merely measurement error. The increase in length should be visible at a casual glance at that point too, I should think.

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    2. Can you provide the documentation of your .15 inch growth?

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  20. I see my comment hasn't gone through yet. Well, I just measured my hands again, after two months of 40 minutes of LSJL on them a day. The left is at around 7.375 inches; the right at about 7.275. That's a growth of around 2.5mm each.

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    1. 40 mins a day?

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    2. Yes. I do my knuckles and the ends of the segments of my fingers and thumbs for a minute each. I sometimes do them for a minute and a half or so too. I've started to do knuckle-pushups every day to create an hypoxic environment in my hands. These also further develop my wrist extensors, allowing my to flex the muscles around my knuckles better when performing LSJL, and allowing me to exert more pressure--both of which things help. I do the LSJL on my hands all by hand too, leading the the hands I'm squeezing with becoming fatigued, which should aid in the LSJL.

      I'll measure in a couple weeks, and will report any gains here. If I don't gain anything I'll make that known too. I am fairly confident these gains I've noticed are not down to measurement error, as the first time I measured I did it a few times, along with the second and so on. Still, I am trying to make absolutely sure. If I consistently note a measurement of close to 1/4" of an inch over my starting measurements, this will be very unlikely to be down to error. I have also measured my right and left index fingers. I've measured from the crease where the epiphysis starts, which would be very hard to get wrong. I just did that for the first time yesterday and got consistent measurements of 3 inches and 5/8 on the left and 3 and 1/2 on the right. I'll measure from these again along with my hand as a whole. If I notice an increase here as well as on my hand as a whole there'll be no doubt in my mind of LSJL working.

      I've obviously been going at it pretty hard on my fingers, so that may be a factor in it working. I'm also taking some supplements. I would recommend anyone who sees my comments to try it too on their fingers. Tyler did it and a slight increase in length is visible in his videos of it. A significant change in thickness too. At the very least your hands will respond to Wolff's Law and become thicker, so it can't hurt to try.

      If you go and look at Smoker's Finger Test on the LSJL Progress forums, he does note an increase in thickness. It seems his finger grows in a curve rather than longitudinally, as Minigolfer points out. This could be down to pressure being created unevenly on each side of his finger by his clamp. The finger could not get longer on one side but not on the other, so it grows in a curve. When you pinch the fingers, it is difficult to create pressure evenly on both sides. You can counter this though. Something I do is, for instance, if I'm pinching one joint of my right finger, if my pinching finger is on the right and my thumb on the left, next time I pinch that joint I'll put my pinching finger on the left and my pinching thumb on the right.

      People not doing this could explain why some people don't grow on their legs when clamping. I'm not sure if most people will put the ball of the clamp on both sides. If they don't then that could explain why some people just get their epiphysis really curving out but no recorded length increase.

      I know this has been a long post, but I feel I've made some important points.

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    3. Oh! One more point: most people's left hands are naturally slightly longer than the right. This can be different in different people. So, don't just do one hand and then think, oh, it's longer then the other, so LSJL must have worked. Measure the actual lengths first.

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    4. Congratulations on your growth. Do you have any pictures?

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    5. Unfortunately I don't. I'm a broke university student who doesn't even have a phone. I don't have a camera of any kind. Speaking of which, I am 20, and I haven't had any height growth since 18, and the hands finish lengthening at 16 on average, I believe I read, with height finishing around the 20th year on average. I hit puberty pretty early. So this is very unlikely to be some coincidental late growth.

      It wouldn't take a great deal of effort for people to just do one finger, so I think some people that can take pictures should. I've been thinking of just asking someone to take a picture of it, but it seems a little embarrassing to me, and I don't even know anyone. If I'm able to get a camera of some kind then I'll take pictures of my arms and legs, which I plan on doing further if I assure myself LSJL works.

      Did your finger get past a little over 3.5 at all? Something that occurred to me is that you might have had more growth than you measured. If you were pinching the knuckle then you probably got some longitudinal growth in the hand itself. I can't remember if and when you said you were pinching the knuckle.

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  21. It is not possible to messure a growth of 1cm in one leg. Even in total growth 1cm could be a meassurement error. Thats why there are only <1cm "successes" with LSJL, the people are meassuring wrong or lie, and instead of waiting for a real result, they scream their bullshit claims out in forums and boards about something, that actually didnt work for anyone.

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    1. Dav82 i know for a fact i am half an inch taller i have been measuring my height for years and my system is as close to 100% accurate as possible to the closest mm both heel flat to the floor credit card LEVEL at the highest possible genuine contact made by top of head measure tape straight and tight as possible also a wadrobe is more accurate than a door or wall also when you are half an inch taller you can feel it and notice it why would i piss myself off by lying i am only interested in facts and facts are always correct everytime

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    2. What I meant to say is that there is about 1 cm difference between my right and left leg.

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    3. Dav82 i had years of nothing so i realise how uncommon and hard adult height increase is but thats part of what has made it more attractive to pursue for me then to FINALLY get some good success i am willing this 1/2 inch to be the breakthrough start continue to get taller it certainly strong evidence that its possible in my eyes .

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    4. There are already enough naysayers in this world. Provide alternatives or modifications to LSJL.

      Destructive criticism won't help anybody get taller, constructive criticism will.

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    5. all i can say to naysers is that i was 174.5 now im 176 i am 100% confident that its possible i am not getting carried away as it only 1/2inch but thought it was worth mentioning considering the size of the increase on my wadrobe marking is just to big to dismiss

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  22. how much adult height growth you made tyler also could you do a study on hyperplasia hypertrophy or both in near future and how we could use it for height growth thanks very interesting

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    1. It would be interesting to study to what degree muscles grow bigger/longer and if any of those methods could be applied to bones.

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  23. I asked a question earlier about your response to a teen, THANKYOU tyler.
    i was a bit frustrated/depressed. but Thankyou for your reply, this blog is awesome

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  24. what if someone is still growing? does this work better for them?

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  25. There is no fusion,only ossification of bone.

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  26. how much height increase by lsjl, my age is 22 and height is 162cm.
    Please suggest me.

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  27. Dav82 what do you think of my Lsjl routine i am also flexing muscles whilst performing and adding extra rotational forces from evaluating this article. what benefits if any does heat add to Lsjl ? what possible benefits could nitric oxide/folic acid give30mins or so pre loading as i am thinking of starting to supplement this?what are the details of your Lsjl?

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  28. It could be that your chondrocytes are going through apotosis very fast therefore not allowing you to grow as much as you could have grown. There is a logical explanation for tylers growth, and that is he had growth in spurts. And if tyler can recall what exactly he did prior to the growth, we might be able to use lsjl to it's full potential. If I recall correctly, mice who were given tamoxifen and phosphate didn't manage to prevent chondrocyte apotosis at all, wherea mice who were given tamoxifen but weren't given any phosphate in their diet, resisted chondrocyte apoptosis. It could be that, during your growth spurt, you didn't get enough calcium, and the chondrocytes managed to go through a few growth cycles before finally being ossified. You might be wondering why this growth wasn't constant and that is because your body increased D3 production to abosrb more calcium from diet, which put the chondrocytes back in the state they were supposed to be.

    I think someone has managed to find a way to keep the gerowth plates from LSJL and prevent the growth plate from being exhausted of it's stem cell pool. The theory that growth plates fuse because they exhaust the proliferative capacity of chondrocytes is only partially correct. The best explanation for growth plates fusing is, that the mesenchymal stem cells stop differentiating into chondrocytes and into osteoblasts. So, if LSJL creates a new mini growth plate, I dont think it's hard to keep the growth plates. The chondrocytes will most definitely reach their proliferative capacity, but new mesenchymal stem cells will replace these chondrocytes if the osteoblast differentiation mechanism is inhibited somehow.

    I think you guys should gather up some funds asap. ;)

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  29. Hey. It's the guy who was doing LSJL on his hands. Still at it, loading from different areas and going up on loading time more. Small fraction of gains from last week.

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  30. from what i see, lsjl is staying at baseline, and only a couple people have got results a bit over baseline type results i.e the 1-2 inches max reported results, which was only less then 5 people? maybe only 3-4 that actually got over 1 inch, on lsjl.. so if the anecdotal evidence was to be seen as a study, the results suggest that lsjl is stuck at neutral for some reason, either its not exerting the maximal pressures that its supposed/capable to or that chondrogenesis or proliferative capacity is being kept down somehow. results seem very neutral to me. and since only a few people may have gotten near an inch that suggest they may have been conducting lsjl properly and getting near the maximum hydrostatic pressures that it can produce, which still has only got an around 1-2 inches in height reported, which may only be the maximum reslut from it.

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  31. tyler have you looked into thymosins?
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12440937
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_thymosins#Tissue_regeneration

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  32. Oh, and interestingly my right hand has grown more. It is now just a hair over my left hand, whereas my left hand consistently measured, and looked when compared, to be slightly longer. I suppose I do use my right hand for more things, so creating an hypoxic environment may be key. Consider, too, that my I'm not able to generate as much pressure with my left hand (which I used to pinch the right), as I'm right-handed. The bones of my right-hands were also, and still are, thicker, meaning they'd need more pressure. I think this stresses the benefit of forms of exercise combined with LSJL.

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  33. The bones thicken and embiggen through LSJL, so more pressure will be needed over time, which probably explains why gains really slow down. I wonder if there is no theoretical cap.

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  34. how long did it take you to gain 1.5inches tyler ?was this gained in spurts or was it spaced out over time ?what other factors do you attribute to your sucess?could you write article about the case for and against LSJL being a effective method for adult height increase?i know it hasnt been proven in humans and remains unknown but has it ever been proven to lengthen animal limbs in scientific tests (adult)

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  35. It's not about the hydrostatic pressure. A single bout of chondrogenesis stimulation is enough to create a growth plate. What's inhibiting the chondrogenesis, that is the question.

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    1. Do you have any evidence that a single bout of hydrostatic pressure is enough to create a growth plate? Such information would be very helpful as proof that adult height growth is worth scientist resources.

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  36. just if wasnt posted: quote:
    natural collagen type 2 in the supplement Collagenex, is proven to deliver the needed collagen to effect faster tissue remodeling in joints and muscles after damaging heavy workout. This most important joint and tissue nutrient was heavily researched at Harvard Medical College to find a bioidentical supplement that was proven to actually contribute to increased collagen type 2 needs in joint tissue remodeling.Collagen type 2 & topical glucosamine and MSM supplement: Studies at Harvard have confirmed that the most usable collagen II is obtained from a purified extract of collagen from analogous chicken tendon tissues. Whenever there is strong workout, tissues are torn and need to repair quickly. This increases the need for collagen type 2, and your cells may not be able to produce enough to achieve as fast as tissue repair as you would like. Health Concerns uses the latest study information to formulize Collagenex 2, with eggshell membrane chemicals to improve absorption and utilization. Typically, athletes have taken glucosamine and chondroitin to achieve these results, but studies show that these ingredient taken orally do not reach the tissues before they are broken down, and that most companies do not put the advertised amounts of chondroitin in the product due to expense.

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  37. No... you dont need supplements for nutrients. You need drugs to create a pre-pubertal environment suitable for growth.

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    1. yes drugs may indeed be important potentially in height gain but thats no reason to dismiss the fundamentall huge importance nutrition plays in body growth

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  38. Dav82 just add that my 1.5 cm height increase DOES take into account my morning height is very strong at this moment in time and is height is 1.5cm taller than my previous morning height which is (0.5-1cm) taller than my evening height i will let you know only if i make any further gains in near future hoping to hit 5ft 10 then 180 cm anyway around medium height now but would like to be taller also curious how do you perform LSJL tyler what supplements etc do you use.what improvements?

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  39. "tyler what supplements etc do you use"

    I wonder why some people won't do the work and just don't read the right sidebar. you'll find the answer if you scroll up > HEIGHT INCREASE PAGES > and there you'll find the answer.

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